I don't care if he was a "loud mouth, cock sucking, criminal, crackhead, piece of garbage" or not.  That you celebrate his injury and regret that he didn't die from his injuries is either inflamatory and insincere or reprehensible and ignorant.  Either way it is irresponsible and it makes me embarrassed for you and your team and it makes me embarrassed to be associated with you via the Fan-sided network.

and just to clarify on irvin and his loud mouth, I was just pointing out that he talked trash to all teams not just philly

so your saying i'm low class cause I cheered for irvin yet it was u guys who cheered such an injury, don't get it twisted cause u are the one who is the scum of the earth and even worse is that u would like to see it happen to T.O. as well, and why? cause he wanted a better contract and u guys didn't want to give it to him so he went to one of your rivals...GET OVER IT EAGLE FANS cause that happens all the time, players want better contracts and so they don't stick w/ their team, so does that mean u want all players in that category to end up paralyzed in the middle of a football field?...and don't gimme this garbage about irvin being a loud mouth cause he talked trash to everyone on the field who was his opponent...that's the way it was cause he had passion for the game...who knew eagle fans were so damn sensitive when it came to some trash talk...maybe u didn't like him cause he was good at abusing your secondary...who knows, and one last thing u mentioned before how class should not be involved in football and that u didn't care if u were looked at as classless b/c of the nature of the sport, but yet u want to classify me as classless b/c I cheered for one of the best recievers who played this game...if class doesn't matter then don't try to classify others that way...see u guys in 08

Love4dastar - The difference is Brian Dawkins is a GREAT person. Michael Irvin is a loud mouth, cock sucking, criminal, crackhead, piece of garbage. If you cheered for such a loser then YOU are low class and scum. How can you cheer for a low life like that? Well I guess I shouldn't ask that because Dallas is used to fielding teams full of convicts. You blindly cheer for the scum of the earth, because they have a star on the helmet.

If you ask me Eagles fans did the right thing that day. A guy like that does not deserve to be in the NFL. He is one of the bad guys, and deserved everything that happened to him.

the sheagles are Al-queida's favorite team.

Honestly guys anything u say to Ian is not getting through so let it be...maybe if dawkins is lying on the ground like he was last yr during that skins game and the results end up like irvin's maybe then they'll understand the irvin situation...maybe roy williams will horse collar the shit outta mcnabb again this season and it will do some real damage and he won't come back from that kind of an injury...so I can't really hate Ian for the way he feels cause if it happened to an eagles player I would feel the same way...but what I can say is that my negativity towards the eagle fans and their players came from that day at the vet in 99 when we saw the last of irvin...u cheered a man who was down w/ a serious injury, and who knows you might see your precious safety in that same situation one day, and if u see opposing fans cheer don't get mad, just remember how u guys reacted to irvin.

Who's gonna take your place here Ian. Keep it up. Your Eagles readers are loving each comment you make. That's why they don't speak any longer because you are FLAT ASS STUPID!!! As a matter of fact, the Landry Hat, Riggo's Rag, and everyone who has any sense at all will from now on will call you STUPID. That is being nice. What I want to say I will not, because I like talking to anyone that has any football smarts, but you? The internet makes you a big man right? No, it still makes you look STUPID. And you are STUPID. Hoping people have lifelong injuries? What the hell is that? You not only make yourself look STUPID, you breed hate. I am not biting on it, and I hope you can realize what you are doing. You had a good thing going on here, and I actually liked reading all the work you put in on this site. As a matter of fact, I thought you had the best mock draft anywhere, but now? Are you on crack? Do you need some help? If you do, speak now, because a couple more Stupid comments, we will not be listening anymore.

First, not all fans cheer for injuries.  You can argue that there are fans of every team that cheer for injury, but not all fans cheer for them.  I don't.  A lot of people don't.  Reconsider your sentence structure the next time you try to write that out.

Second, even if that's true, that doesn't give you license to support that activity.  All countries have murderers but that doesn't mean I should support a Redskins fan stalking and killing McNabb because he wants the Eagles to lose.  Obviously if you can agree with that statement then you can agree that there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere.  If you don't agree with that statement, then you're a sad pathetic little man who needs to re-evaluate his life.

The only conclusion I can come up with is that you're too immature to really understand what the hell you're talking about. What are you, 20? 21?  It shows.

Oh, and Ian...when you go to a game you don't get the advantage of close up views and instant replays.  You see...you're actually in the stands.  So saying that the person sitting behind me was more knowledgable because he said "I hope Shawn Springs is so hurt he never plays another down again in his life" not only does it not make any sense that he knew more than I did, but he couldn't see any better than I could either.  So why don't you shut the hell up you ignorant bastard?

But isn't it sad when your own players were disappointed in the fans? And your Mayor felt a need to apologize?

Remember it is still a game. It does not pay your bills. It does not fix anything. Humanity should come before sports.

Eagles Dave - I agree. TO will hopefully end his career just like Irvin. I can see it now. TO laying lifeless on the field of the Linc, after a vicious hit from Brian Dawkins. That would be the perfect final scene for his soap opera of a life.

Dallas Dave - You might say you hate Theisman, but I don't think you truly understand how much Irvin is hated. Osama Bin Laden is probably liked more than Michael Irvin is in Philadelphia.

I understand he is one of your guys that you probably loved watching play, but unless you actually lived the early 90s as an Eagles fan you could never understand.

You can be mad all you want, but the Eagles fans did not break Irvin's neck, Bobby Taylor, Tim Hauck, and the Vet turf did. Eagles fans were just glad it happened.

i personally hate joe theisman, i dispised him. i loathed him. i could'nt stand any thing about the little prick. but the day taylor shattered his leg, my stomach turned for him. i felt greif for him, and did not want to see it end for him that way. i BIG HIT is always great to see. knock him the fuck out we always say. but when someones career is over because of a devistating injury.....and to sit there and cheer about it is wrong.....it is just wrong. i wanted to see joe theisman get up from it to take another shot from someone. yeah i like a good piss your pants, knock your shoes off shot, but i'd like to see that player get up for another one, not layin there in a heap, till he's removed in a stretcher. i think you philly fans have said it all with these last comments. we have said this all along, and now you guys have confirmed it loud and clear. you're a classless bunch of worthless garbage of people that call yourself football fans???? you're not football fans, cause what you said about irvins injury has NOTHING at all to do with football, it's just pure BULLSHIT, that you philly fans are full of. and you won't have to tell me to get the fuck out of here, cause thats done already.

i cant for dawkins or jr reed to nail owens. shit, you wanna hear some fans? these eaglehaters are gonna love that. take stock in kleenex.  Ian you are right bout all fans cheering injurys. i remember lindros getting knocked out at pittsburgh some 10 yrs ago. the fans there were howling. hell, even the penguins were high fiving each other. i remember cunningham hopping off the field in ny. the jet fans certainly were'nt holding their breath. i'm sure giant fans would'nt stoop to that level now would they? shit, philly fans fart loud and people start crying.

Guy - ALL FANS cheer injuries. Redskins, Cowboys, Giants, Eagles, Patriots, Bears, Dolphins, etc. It does not matter what team you root for, there are fans who get enjoyment in seeing somebody they hate from the other team go down.

Also I remember Shawn Springs getting jacked up by Josh Parry, and that was great. He knocked Springs the fuck out! I'll never forget that hit, or Joe Theisman. He said 'number 49 absoloosely puts him out'. It was the best play of Josh Parry's career.

The Eagles fan who was cheering clearly knows more about football than you do, and saw that Springs just got the wind knocked out of him. That is called a BIG TIME HIT! That is is what football fans love, and want to see every week. Do you expect fans to not enjoy the game? The guy got knocked on hi ass, and a fan wanted to heckle him for it. Where is the problem? Only you have an issue with it, because you probably thought he was actually injured.

Staubach - "Unspeakable, even for us", was an article headline. The Daily News has to sell papers somehow.

I have no problem with how Irvin was treated, because of the way he acted. Irvin did a lot more than just wear a star on his helmet for Eagles fans to hate him. Trash talking, high stepping, taunting, stupid dances, egging on the fans, and extremely cocky attytude made the hatred level for him boil over the top. He earned that treatment through his own actions.

Hate is a very strong word, and I HATE Michael Irvin.

Now I will really tell you how I feel about what happened that day though.

You can call me sick, classless, a jerk, scum, or whatever you want, but I still celebrate the day Michael Irvin left Veterans stadium on a stretcher.

It cut a major jerkoff's career short, and symbolizes the end of an era(90s Cowboys). To me Michael Irvin is a piece of shit, and I am a disappointed that he didn't die that day.

To this day I still pray for the worst to happen to him. I enjoyed when he got arrested AGAIN. I loved when ESPN fired him for racist comments. Anything bad that happens to that piece of shit deserves to be applauded.

This was not an ordinary event that can be compared.

If it was then why did the Eagles players say their disgust with their own fans, and the Mayor apologized for the City? Doesn't that itself prove it was beyond "normal"?

"Unspeakable, even for us," proclaimed a headline in the Philadelphia Daily News. "

Oh, and Ian, the injured player in question was Shawn Springs. It later turned out he was fine, but at the time it looked like a serious injury.  The eagles fan said that he hoped it was career ending.

Even though (unlike Michael Irvin) the injury turned out to be minor, I still remember that incident vividly and I still feel incensed about it. So you can just shut up about how we wouldn't be talking about the Michael Irvin thing.  Maybe it wouldn't have gotten as much media attention, but Cowboys, Giants, and Redskins fans would still know damn well what some of the lowest of the Eagles fans are capable of.

And with irresponsible idiots like you quietly encouraging them and calling their antics funny, then defending their behavior and/or pretending that it's not as bad as it really is...well you're doing your own fan base a real disservice.

I go to nearly every Redskins home game and I have for the last eight years.  The only time I have EVER heard anyone ever mock an injured player at Fed-ex Field, it was by an idiot in an Eagles jersey sitting behind me.  I stood up, turned around, and shouted him down and the entire section (including some eagles fans) applauded.

No, not every eagles fan is a thug.  There are plenty of good ones.  But there is a significant percentage of bad ones, and your bad ones tend to be worse than the bad ones from other teams.  You do your own fans a disservice by promoting violence on other fans in a humorous context.

I'd also say that there's a marked difference between labeling someone as fragile and wishing injury upon a player.  And calling McNabb "McChoke" has nothing at all to do with his injuries and everything to do with his superbowl and NFC East Championship performances.

Furthermore, what some bears fan with a camera is going to experience has absolutely no bearing on what an NFC East rival with no camera and few friends or witnesses would experience.  Just like a Redskins fan in Green Bay probably isn't going to experience as much grief as a Bears fan.  Or a Ravens fan in Pittsburgh. 

The fact that you point to this as some sort of evidence while still holding fast to your beating-people-up-is-funny attitude is hypocracy at its finest.

I love how people pretend that their fans never cheer injuries. I remember tons of NFC East fans laughing when Donovan McNabb's season ended on Monday Night Football in 2005 due to a torn groin. People came up with the extremely clever nick names like McHurt, McChoke, and McBust.

Every Cowboys, Giants, and Redskins message board out there had threads with fans thinking this injury was such a riot. it was a riot that Donovan McNabb was injured.

All football fans crave big hits, violent collisions, and yes injuring the opponents. You are lying to yourself if you say otherwise.

If Michael Irvin had bounced right up from that hit? What if he had just gotten the wind knocked out of him, and gotten back up? Would we even be talking about this? Since it turned out he was seriously hurt, people want to get their panties in a bunch.

Before you guys get too mad at me. Again, I am only talking about this incident, even your Mayor and your own players were shocked at the fans for the Irvin reaction.

(Guess my first comment is not visible so this follow up will not make sense until then)

There are good and bad fans wherever you go. Although there is much less in Dallas ;-) I think abused fans should have a right to sue the owners if they do not have enough security.

But I will never forget the Michael Irvin thing. I will give the Eagles fans the benefit of the doubt, but that is one of the ugliest thing I ever witnessed in sports. That is a black mark in Philly fan history

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news...

Dallas Dave - First off F CLASS! I hate when people always talk about class. Who cares about being classy? I sure don't. Acting classy is something that is associated with Tennis, Golf, and the wealthy. Football is not about class.
It is about physically beating the opponent, and then kicking them while they are down. There is no room for class when it comes to football.

Now, not all Eagles fans are bad. In fact most of them are great fans who would probably share a beer with you in the parking lot and talk football. The few bad fans that do those type of things give all Eagles fans a bad reputation.

Here is the thing Dave. If you come to Philadelphia wearing a Dallas Cowboys jersey you are basically putting a huge target on your back for the bad fans to easily find you.

Now one thing you will be sure to receive no matter what is the "Asshole" chant. It is almost a tradition to just have everybody chant "Asshole" really loud anytime you spot a person wearing the opposing teams gear. It is really no big deal, and it is nothing more than a chant.

Most of the same people who will yell and call you an asshole, will probably shake your hand and talk football with you, if you just approach with an open attytude.

Nobody is going to get their ass kicked for just no reason. Most of the time it is some trouble maker who is looking to pick a fight, and tries to stir things up with opposing fans. To avoid those assholes, just do not take the bait.

If somebody calls you and asshole, laugh it off. If somebody throws some popcorn at you just shrug it off. IF somebody 'accidentally' bumps into you, just keep walking. These type of people are baiting you into a fight. They want you respond or react to their nonsense just to start trouble. If you ignore those things you avoid those people, and should probably find some fans who will talk football with you.

He went to the tailgate, some people yelled at him, others talked to him, he watched the game, and came out alive and unscaved.

So much nonsense is spread about all Eagles fans being thugs, and it is just a lame generalization. Eagles fans are full of good people, and are extremely passionate about their football team.

A Bears fan made an actual documentary about going to an Eagles game wearing a Brian Urlacher jersey. If you have some time watch it, and see that while he got the Asshole chant a lot, it was all in good fun, and people had no problem with him.

The documentary starts off by depicting Philadelphia and it's fans in a very negative way, but when it came down to it nothing that bad happened to this kid.

There was all this talk of how bad Eagles fans would beat him up, and he would probably not leave the Linc alive. Well the dude got a ton of the asshole treatment, and outside of that nothing bad happened to him. Some fans pretended to him him, laughing while they did it. Others stood around and talked football with him. Once the game started nobody even cared he was there.

In fact at the end the guy praises Eagles fans for being so great, and you see that he was embraced by majority of the fans.

Eagles fans reputation for being "classless thugs" is a myth.

You asked me to show you, so here it is.

Part1> http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsPtftPbABU

Part2> http://youtube.com/watch?v=7DS4aibNgNs

Part3> http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jfw3I_ZBjMk

Part4> http://youtube.com/watch?v=QHcEgvm_M2k

Part5> http://youtube.com/watch?v=EKsHZ4y5Klw

i will say this as a ccowboy fan, and a rabid one too i might add, i love the cowboys. i live for cowboy football. i lve in N.Iowa and have traveled to dallas, milwaukee, greenbay, minneapolis, stlouis, and philly to see them play. as i said earlier, never was i teated the way i was in philly. with my 15 year old daughter!!!!!! philly fans at THAT game were a DISGRACE to say the least. if thats an indication of every game, then i'd say you all can kiss my ass, you have no decentcy at all. those fans were thugs. not to be proud of. if you are a good eagles fan, my oppologies, but if you were in that group kiss my ass and hope you get YOUR face pushed in at the next one YOUR at. i don't care if these actions were say 25 years ago, it's still the same in philly. when you condone and cheer for violence and harassment it's wrong in any era. the folks at milwaukee even tipped there beer to me when emmit smith got a td. the fans in greenbay are just as rabid as you guys are, but those people are midwest, and have manners, pride, and dignety as fans. they have CLASS. DO YOU GUYS?????? then show us

Ian, it wasn't a small portion of eagles fans. But I'll conceed the fact that they weren't booing McNabb so much as they were booing the failure to pick Ricky Williams. But suggesting that there were only a few Eagles fans who wanted them to get Ricky Williams is a bit of revisionist history.

That's like saying that all the Patriots fans today were Patriots fans 20 years ago and only a small percentage of them latched onto the bandwagon when they started getting good.

how 'bout them knick fan booing thier 1st round pick!!! he is from italy. then they start chanting usa,usa,usa.. yet ny fans still feel they are gods gift to the sport world.

i guess you have a selective memory. i remember when cunningham broke his leg while playing the jets. he hopped off the field, while he was the jet fans started to make some noise in appreciation. what was that? a get well appaulse? you people get off on a holyier than thou attitude. i guess it makes you feel better...i guess. i.ve been to giants stadium in my eagles gear...guess what i i'll never do again. what do think happened egg hole head?   listen pal, i will say its a bit rougher in philly. what do you expect?   go eat a banana in front of a starving gorilla. philly fans are no differant than any other east coast fan. EXCEPT that we are that starving gorilla. ....oh and by the way, just for your info. the jets game was back in 93. eric allen returned a sepectacular int. td return. the giants game was back in 86. the only really great giant team that comes to mind. your next 2 sb were, come on now....lucky dogs. no sour grapes here but it must be nice. anyway at giant stadium the giants were kicking the eagles in the first half. a bunch of guys started to throw stuff at us. then the beer started to come down on us and other fans. so we left at the half. nothing but trouble would camre to us if we had stayed. and the most revolting incident  i ever saw on tv was the giant fans tossing down ice chunks at the charger bench. well, one hit a man without a helmut on. nice shot, i guess i had to be there 

NY fans are not the buttholes that the sick PA fans are. You think cheering injuries is being a fan. That shows how low you are.

And Kiss our big shiny rings. Have no idea what Tom was talking about. NY is the best until someone says otherwise

Guy: Yes the former Philadelphia mayor, now Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell did publicly plea for the Eagles to draft Ricky Williams. While he represents the city in a political manor, he does not when it comes to sports. He is a fan just like everybody else.

People look back at that event, and say Eagles fans booed Donovan McNabb on draft day. Really the people there were going to boo anybody pick that was not Ricky Williams. They had fallen in love with the idea of Ricky, and thought the Eagles were going to take him for sure. They would have booed Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Edjerrin James, Torry Holt, and Daunte Culpepper.

McNabb had the misfortune of having his draft day somewhat ruined, because of a small portion of Eagles fans would only have been happy if Ricky Williams was the choice.

Ian: Didn't the Mayor speak out in favor of Ricky Williams? It was more than just 30 dopes.  There's some revisionist history right there.

Dave: The difference is that the majority of Redskins fans would condemn the actions of that dope who was harrassing you. I'm not sure that's true for Eagles fans.  I've been trying for over a week to find ONE EAGLES FAN on this site to condemn (or even politely disagree with) Ian's whole beating-up-people-is-funny attitude.  So far, no takers.  PLEASE, prove me wrong. 

when irvan was hurt it was greeted by what any fan reaction in any city would do. what happened after was that when irvan was on the ground and it looked like a serious injury. dion sanders breaks into this stupid voodoo dance. he is prancing around irvan as if the gods were watching him. now what do think the fans would do? i suppose redskin fans would started to dance with sanders also? philly fans are for real bro. we dont pretend to be somebody that were not. take for instance the ny fan. why doesnt everyone throw them under the bus for booing thier 1st rd. pick. booing a-rod, throwing ice chunks down from the stands.  everyone critizies philly but they cant see whats past thier nose's. as far redskin fans, we go to ocean city md. my wife and i were talking football and this dope followed us outside. it was a isolated incident..but i'm gonna play this game by your rules. all redskin fan are a-holes. if i hear how many rings again i'm gonna freak. son, my fathers eagles won 3 and your deadskins were a joke. does it matter now? no. so stick your rings were your breath is freshest. have a nice day

Michael Irvin earned that treatment by making Philadelphia hate him. His attytude and all of his antics just made him the most despised enemy.

McNabb was booed by 30 fans who were at the draft. 30 people do not represent an entire fan base of millions of people. Those 30 dopes were brain washed into thinking Ricky Williams was the next Earl Campbell.

How about the fact that you booed your own best player of this generation when he was drafted?  The eagles pick...Donovan McNabb! BOooooooooO!  The fact that he choked and vomited in the superbowl was all your fault. If he had been greeted with more support, he wouldn't be choking so badly when it really counts.

is he alright now?.....there ya go

How about the time you guys cheered when Michael Irvin appeared to have a serious neck injury? That was within the past 15 years.

sorry egg-hole...i wouldnt want to get any dust on me...why dont you try talkin about something thats happened withing the past 15 years then well talk.....just like us stomping that zee douche it happened 25 years ago get over it and talk about something new

P.S. Kiss our big fat rings

All you idiots who don't know this happened 25 years ago, subtract that from chief Zee's age.

Look at me, acting like I own the stadium, trying to get attention, and on TV. Then you wonder why the person got the living hell beat out of them by drunken Iggles' fans.

Stupid Foreskins fans!

I guess your fans are tougher than your team. In smell too ha!

That and if you think it is ok to beat up old men and then laugh about it then you are a flat out mental case. This thing started out over Chief Zee, but evidently Ian has several pictures of Eagles fans beating up elderly men. I am 30 and if you want to take a swing at me good luck, but I guarantee you if you took a jab at my grandfather you wouldn't have the opportunity to laugh you freakin pussies. This is probobly the most screwed up crap I have ever read. No, it definately is.

The problem is that people want to be able to watch the game and cheer for their team without getting beat up.

why do all of other annoying teams in the nfc east feel its necessary to voice their opinion on how other people should act...so philly fans like to drink heavily and start fights get over it, just watch the game, cheer for your team, if you start to show of then watch out....thats it plain and simple get the hell over it

Maybe you should whine about it to Arlen Specter.  He could launch an investigation or something.

Guy - Swoop was cheated. I saw that thread on E-Skins with people explaining how to vote over and over. You cheating Foreskin fans!

Here is an Eagles fan beating up a fat fucking New Yorker at Giant stadium.

Try that crap in New York. You guys will get your bell cracked

I don't really claim to be classy.  However, look at how far we (or rather, you) have sunk when the definition of class and righteousness seems to be "Not openly supporting or encouraging violence between fans of different teams."  That's truly pathetic. 

Do I have class and rightousness because I don't endorse those things? No, not necessarily.  That doesn't mean I don't shake my head in disgust at Ian for being the bottom-feeding irresponsible piece of dirt that he obviously is for supporting violent behavior that resulted in a major injury.  You don't NEED to be classy to be disgusted by Ian.

I continue to hope that an Eagles fan will be brave enough to come forward to support this idea, because I know there are good Eagles fans out there who do not like the image Ian represents.  We'll see what happens.

Oh, and Hail to Chief Zee for defeating Swoop!  There is some justice in the world after all.

I thought us Giants fans were tough, but you guys take the cake. We R tough, you bird guys are just plain sick

Foreskins fans always acting righteous, and talking about class. F The Foreskins.

Chef Zee isn't that fierce. Don't mess with Swoop!

Steamroller - That is your opinion. I think I did nothing wrong. If Guy wants to get that offended over something that is almost 25 years old, then it must be that time of the month for him. It's not like the mascot was killed. He got beat up, and recovered just fine. I think it's safe to poke some fun at it 25 years later.

It's funny because when there's a sea of green out there, there's also a sea of people wearing green getting arrested.  It got so bad that one cop accidently spilled mace on the entire eagles bench.  I go to eight games a year and yet only the Eagles game is the one that consistantly has fights breaking out.

Steam and Dave, thank you for your words. It's nice to know some people have enough class to condemn this. 

I wonder if any eagles fans out there have the balls to stand up to Ian and show him he's wrong.  I know not all of you are asshole thugs.  I know some of you wince at the reputation that you get; a reputation that this idiot is reinforcing right now.  Show us that Eagles fans can be good fans too.

I once said RG was always wrong. He's right on this and you Ian are wrong. There is nothing right in anything you have said about this. You put a lot of time into this site just to tear it apart with nothing but neglegent immoral responses like that, and I don't say that just as an insult because I am sure you don't care, but I don't think you know just how WRONG you are. Go ahead and bash back, but know that I am not the one talking about your beloved team and home. I am only talking about you.

Funny this is coming from a Redskins and Cowboys fans. Dallas and DC are two of the worst shit holes in America. People bash Philadelphia, but those two cities are much worse.

Eagles fans are one thing that Cowboys and Redskins fans are not. They are loyal no matter what. Both of your fan bases always brag about all these Lombardi trophies, but yet when your team is down you can't even sell out a stadium. For about 3 or 4 years in a row thousands of Eagles fans easily got tickets to Redskins games. It got so bad that one game it looked like a sea of green. I'll also never forget the Cowboys Steelers game where all you saw at Texas stadium were those stupid terrible towels.

Dallas and DC; Terrible cities with bandwagon fans.

As much hate as I have for stinkin Giants fans, you can at least say they show up every game. Although they do sit on their hands, drink wine, and eat crackers.